The blogging world just imploded over at Feministe last night over a post about the BMI by guest blogger, Monica. Granted this post is imperfect. Perhaps not the most well-formed argument. Certainly some offensive comments in there (“too many donuts” seems to have not been the best choice here). Certainly a one-sided argument. Honestly, I know very little about the FA movement or the Fat Positive Movement and I appreciated the education from some commenters. I’m sure Monica did too. But in what universe is this: 
or this, this and this:
acceptable OR feminist??
And this goes on. There are also some really great comments, that provide good arguments and educate readers around why, exactly, they found this post offensive. But there were so, so many posts that were filled with hatred and anger and bullying, responding to this blogger as though she weren’t even human, so much so that I could barely feel anything other then an urge to stick up for her, regardless of the content of her post. I mean, so Monica thinks the BMI might possibly have some worth. I don’t. Many others don’t. But do I hate her for writing it? No. Was this post really, truly deserving of this kind of response? Does she deserve hatred over this? Does she deserve to be called ‘bigot’? Slow your roll, feminists. Bad arguments. Ok. Thin-privilege. Ok. Lack of sensitivity. Ok. But hatred? No. I have had enough of this kind communal attack on feminist bloggers who dare to write something from a perspective that isn’t yours. I fear that the ‘everyone pile on’ kind of response that happened here, along with the threats to never again read ANY other post by any of the other excellent bloggers on Feministe as the result of this ONE controversial post (i.e. as punishment for ‘allowing’ Monica to post this one), to be, essentially, an effort to intimidate other feminist bloggers into never saying anything controversial. Into never saying anything that might conflict with your beliefs. Not cool.
I mean, the comments sections in the vast majority of blogs or online papers tend to be a place for people to vent in a way they never would in any other forum. That said, the comments section at blogs like Feministe are often full of intelligent comments, bringing different perspectives to the debate and are actually worth reading. That is why I am so aghast by the number of ‘I hate you’ and ‘I am never reading this blog again’ posts. To me this is bullying. You disagree with one poster’s opinion and you reject an entire blog? You’re pulling a power trip, as far as I’m concerned. And ‘I hate you’? What?! Grow up. All this mass boycotting and de-linking and hatred lest you make one. wrong. move (this is just the grossest example power-tripping/bullying/step-out-of-line-and-I-will-cut-you-electronically EVER. Like, give me a break, you do NOT have this power. Why you desire it is another question.). I have personally experienced this kind of ganging up in blogs and comments sections, and yes, blogging about controversial topics requires a tough skin, as well as the ability to hear criticism, but I am just shocked at how willing people are to make personal attacks and how intensely they can hate you simply because they disagree with your perspective. I know how shocking and devastating it can be to hear these kinds of attacks from those who you consider to be ‘on your side’, especially when the attacks are so personal and so vicious. We are used to, and can expect, to a certain degree, attitudes such as this from ACTUAL bigots, MRAs, and misogynists, but from feminists? Call me naive, but I think we can do better.
Hating one another and using threats as a way to bully people into catering to only your perspective and your interests is far from feminist and I am more and more shocked by feminist bloggers and commenters who treat fellow feminists in this way. Criticize, disagree, be angry, whatevs. Hey! We feminists disagree ALL THE TIME! We’ve been doing it for years! In-fighting is not new to feminism. But it is never, ever ok to tell a feminist that she isn’t a feminist because you disagree with her. It is not your place to decide who is and who is not feminist. And leaving comments that read: ‘I’m not ever reading Feministe ever again unless someone agrees with my attack on the person and apologizes for their opinion’ is, as far as I’m concerned, the words of a bully. Is this what we really want for the movement? Or do we want to encourage dialogue? Respectfully. We don’t all have to agree, but there are ways of communicating your perspective without telling someone to go die. Slow. Your. Roll.
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I hate to keep repeating this everywhere I go, but this is what happens when the right is on the rise… this is what happened in the late 70s, too. The old liberal/lefty coalitions just went BOOM and everyone turned on each other. As Obama is under attack, the left starts eating itself alive and imploding, and I see history repeating: one term president, new fascist will be elected, the right wing will control everything for the next decade.
Of course, we could turn back now, and try to stop all of this and hold the coalitions together, but I don’t see anyone but the Green Party doing that (which is why I signed up). Also… you and a few other bloggers calling for civility. Very few, sad to say.
Good luck, and please remember what I said: I don’t like what I see, since I saw it all before.
I suppose it would be too much to ask to actually expect you to read even a fucking iota of what you’re talking about. Background work must be really hard. It’s not like this is some kind of mainstream feminist site where it’s reasonable to expect some integrity and effort.
Here, have a quote from the page you linked on my site.
“[...]This list is not a list of sites that you should never look at again. Or boycott. [...] the list overall is to make it known which sites fail to show accountability for doing things that hurt [various marginalized groups][...] This list is to act as a warning to you, that when you see these sites, their actions are suspect, their motives may be suspect [...] and you should exhibit caution and discretion when dealing with them.”
And
“How you wish to deal with them depends more on how you balance accountability regulation [link] and no doubt you’ll have to make your own decisions on how to handle the situation.”
Wow, Meghan, isn’t that just the grossest example of power-tripping/bullying/step-out-of-line-and-I-will-cut-you-electronically you’ve ever seen? A page of blogs that have problems with showing accountability for mistakes (not even making mistakes, which everyone does, just not taking responsibility) as a list for people to be wary of but not boycott or cut electronically?
Gosh, I’m so glad you’re talking lessons from Fox News in your journalism style. I’m sure The F Word will benefit greatly from your conduct.
And no, Meghan. I don’t hate you. I’m just sad you can’t show even an iota of professional pride in your research.
Yup, that’ll do it. You have my appeciraiton.
A summary of this post, in two parts:
1. Saying that fat people don’t exercise (“there’s not an epidemic of fat runners out there”) and blatantly dismissing fat people’s experiences by generalising one’s own experience (“[Doctors]’re never concerned when I’ve put on ten pounds (…) I’ve only ever heard doctors talk about the BMI in public health contexts”) is nothing but “a perspective that isn’t yours” — and it’s definitely not bigotry!
2. WHY are you being so HOSTILE (http://www.derailingfordummies.com/#hostile) and so ANGRY (http://www.derailingfordummies.com/#angry) D:<
Fin.
Right. On.
That post was callous, could have been written a lot differently/better, but saying that makes her not eligible to be a feminist like I saw in the comments was ridiculous.
If there are checkpoints and a litmus test like that, no one gets in the club. I agree with you– let’s fight the real enemy. Not each other. There are lots of ways to handle conflicts and privilege-checking, and kicking someone out of the club and yelling a lot aren’t good ones.
@LLR – I agree that those parts of Monica’s post were offensive and I do not argue that folks should not be angry about aspects of her argument. What I am arguing is that these comments are uncalled for, extremely harsh and hateful. These commenters were bullies.
@Genderbitch – I read the disclaimer on your ‘shit list’ several times, months ago, and then again, when writing this post and it still sounds like a power trip to me. The write ups you have about each site on your ‘list’ are extremely harsh, unjustified, and filled with personal attacks on the bloggers you include on your list. You decide who is a ‘lost cause’ and whose sites are ‘salvageable’, based on one-wrong-move-and-you’re-out criteria. I don’t’ see what putting them on a public list, named ‘the shit list’, is, other than an attempt to bully and intimidate, regardless of your disclaimer which says that this is not your goal. I also believe that, by linking directly to your ‘shit list’, I allow for transparency in terms of my comments around your list; as it allows and encourages readers to actually go to your site and do all this suggested background work for themselves, in order to see what your ‘list’ is all about and make decisions as to whether or not it holds any validity.
I have thin privilege. I have cis privilege.
I hated the Fat & Health post on Feministe as well. But do explain to me how the fuck it can ever count as bullying when it is the underprivileged fat people who get angry at the privileged thin poster who made really snide comments about fat and health. The donut remark wasn’t the best thing to say ever? Well, understatement of the year. The donut remark was out of line ALONG with several others in the same post – all of them quoted by the commenters. The issue is not so much that Monica posted something shitty. The issue is that she was snide, condescending and even more offensive in her following comments. And some of the comments you quoted were not responses to the original post, but to her hideously hateful defensive comments in the thread.
Making mistakes is not the problem. Not owning up to the fact that they were mistakes are.
That, btw, is incidentally the point genderbitch makes on her shit list. You think it sounds like a power trip, when someone who is underprivileged warns others with the same lack of privileges to be wary of the bigotry? Don’t you think that’s a little hypocritical, when feminists are the often the first to warn each other to not go to this or that site, ’cause it’s steeped in dudebro culture?
Apparently not. When you do it, it’s okay. Gotcha.
The shit list does not have a one-wrong-move-you’re-out criterion, which you’d know had you bothered to actually get informed about the cases. We’re talking about sites that have either repeatedly failed and not been able to improve. Or we’re talking sites who may only have failed once, but managed to defend themselves in such harmful bigoted ways that they dug a hole it’s going to take them much proof of improvement to get out of. Proof that has not yet been forthcoming.
Additionally I find it incredibly hilarious that you feel so sowwweeeee for a poster who SHUT DOWN COMMENTS, when she didn’t want to hear anymore criticism. Monica had the privilege to stop the comments at any time. She also had the privilege of not giving a shit about the realities that fat people face. And I assume you have the privilege of not giving a shit about the realities that trans people face. Therefore you also have the privilege of not giving a shit when something nasty is being said about either group, BUT to speak with disdain of the people belonging to those very groups that are harmed. THAT is incredibly hypocritical for a feminist, who (I assume) do not appreciate it when men speak with disdain of feminism and feminists.
Christ on a pogo stick. What a cis/thin-privileged feminist circlejerk this has become. I’m disgusted. I may have both cis and thin privilege, but count me out of this condescending, patronising bullshit you’re pulling on our fat/trans/both sisters.
@April:
You’re really good at apologism. I didn’t realize feminists got to be treated nicer than say I dunno, the menz, when y’all fuck up. I thought when someone fucks up, we address it, hard and fast if need be.
@Meghan:
Your impression is wrong. Oh well. Let’s go over your reasons for it.
“The write ups you have about each site on your ‘list’ are extremely harsh, unjustified, and filled with personal attacks on the bloggers you include on your list.”
They are merely describing exactly what was done. Bluntly. That may be harsh but I won’t coddle people who have no sense of accountability. And since they’re a description of exactly what happened, they’re more than justified. And since they’re descriptions of actions, they’re hardly personal. If someone (like Liss) did actions that make them personally look horrific, well that’s not my problem, now is it?
“You decide who is a ‘lost cause’ and whose sites are ’salvageable’, based on one-wrong-move-and-you’re-out criteria.”
Bull. I decide which are lost causes based on a consistent effort on the part of the blogger(s) to dodge every inch of responsibility they have and on surrounding circumstances that might influence them. FWD (which has since been removed from the list due to them fixing the issue) and Bilerico are both salvageable cuz they’ve got a bunch of contributors who are actively working to fix the problems. Shakesville is not salvageable because Liss not only puts all efforts into dodging accountability and apologism, most of her posse do too. There’s no one to provide a voice of reason there.
That’s not even close to “one wrong move and you’re out.” Seriously, you claim you read this, but I’m really skeptical as to that claim because of your complete lack of comprehension.
As for the name, that’s easy. The name is the way it is because it is a list of people “who consistently pull shit”. It is a response of equal harshness to the nastiness tossed at me by cis people. Nothing about bullying in that. If you really wanna talk about bullying, do try reading Monica’s post about fat people again. Just saying.
“[...] allow for transparency in terms of my comments around your list [...]”
Oh, no linking is definitely good. Transparency is good. If you hadn’t linked, I never would have found this post anyways.
What I have a problem with is that you expect your readers to do your research for you. You go in and skim a place, possess no comprehension of it, write an article worthy of Faux News and you think this is okay because “my readers can research it!”
No, Meghan. That’s not acceptable. Lemme tell you what I do when I write an article about a site. I read hard and deep, I don’t skim. I show what’s actually there and not what I’ve made up after skimming. And I leave the link for transparency. And if I screw up and write something inaccurate? I put a recantation at the top of the post and an apology.
I guess I just believe in professionalism. Maybe I ought to be the one writing for the F-Word.
But do explain to me how the fuck it can ever count as bullying
Because “fuck you” instead of presenting logical arguments, is the way Junior High girls argue. If you can’t post anything ADULT, go play with your Barbies and Tiger Beats and fuck off. Of course, YMMV.
I am so tired of CHILDREN PLAYING on the net (yes, deliberately ageist comment, since no one at Feministe seems to be over 30, which is half the problem) … grow the fuck up.
Professionalism? “Fuck you” and “I hate you” is considered professional now? Well, strip my gears and call me shiftless. As a working class person w/no concept of PROFESSIONALISM, color me surprised.
Betcha I am fatter than anybody on this thread, too.
For me, the issue was the nastiness of the commenters. Oh yeah, I’m sure Monica is itchin to learn all about fat acceptance, now that she has been blindsided, gangpiled, insulted and kicked to the curb. I feel the same way about the thread in which I was attacked ON MY OWN BLOG, repeatedly… and I was obese when I wrote it. (Photos available, if you need em!) There is simply no reason for viciousness and cruelty when we are all on the same side.
NO REASON.
I suppose it would be too much to ask to actually expect you to read even a fucking iota of what you’re talking about.
Anyone with a modicum of decency, know what CIVILITY is, so I think she probably does have a fucking iota of what she is talking about. She is talking about the BEHAVIOR.
Genderbitch, I know LOTS more about fat than you do. I have been fat (off and on) (and what a loaded phrase!) all my life. Count it, that’s almost 30 years longer than you’ve been on the planet. If you want to argue with me about fat, I’m here.
I qualify for this discussion–do you?
HERE IT IS: I DISAGREE WITH THE FAT ACCEPTANCE PEOPLE, and that SHOULD BE possible to do without being called all kinds of names. Like Greta Christina, I did not arrive at my position lightly and/or without significant mental and physical anguish, far more than you have ever dealt with around weight and food. Speed (as in, you know, amphetamines), eating disorders, starvation, addiction, being endlessly harangued by mom and plied with her dexedrine; I will gladly put my “fat experience” up against anyone on that thread. AND I SHOULD STILL BE ALLOWED to come to a different conclusion, as Monica has, be respected and still be regarded as feminist. That thread was a fucking TRAVESTY.
If this is what feminism is becoming, we are fucked, like major league fucked.
I agree with you– let’s fight the real enemy. Not each other.
April, brilliance, my friend. Brilliance.
But notice: when the Left was on the rise, we were all very lovey-dovey and supportive (by comparison), but now that we are getting sliced and diced by the Tea Partiers, everyone is turning on each other. It’s an “acting out” on each other, of what the Right is doing… if I were more woo (Mr Daisy thinks that isn’t even possible, but just SAY I was, LOL) I would believe what my “energy work” friends say, that there is some destructive energy from the Right wing that we have caught, like a virus. Some woo guy named Rupert Sheldrake named it MORPHOGENETIC FIELDS, and okay, that sounds as believable as anything else.
In short, we are freagmenting and tearing each other apart like hyenas, at the time we can least afford to do so.
Look, I can get behind the idea that internet call outs can be done in a bullying way. Sometimes folks latch onto something someone did wrong and use it as a justification for enacting their own oppressive behavior, either in retaliation or simply because the supposedly the wronged party can do no wrong. That is a very valid conversation to be having.
However, you go much beyond that. No one can call a feminist a bigot? No one can tell someone that what they are doing isn’t feminist? Under any circumstances? (Except apparently for you, immediately after your blockquotes). The overall take away message you are sending is that anyone who claims the title of feminist can do no wrong, or at least no wrong worth being angry about. If one of the “real bigots” or misogynists said something really hurtful and messed up and half a dozen feminists left “fuck you” comments, would you be writing a post on how the commenters are being bullies, unacceptable, and unfeminist?
Feminists don’t simply “disagree with each other” all the time, but have a long history of identity policing, jettisoning the undesirables, and perpetuating intensely personal and hurtful oppression in the name of feminism. The feminists who are invested in racism, or homophobia, or transphobia, or fatphobia, etc, are not inherently more reasonable or confrontable than the sexist men invested in those systems.
Given this history, and the fact that oppressed groups have always been accused of dividing the movement when they respond to the hurtful and bigoted behavior of other members of the movement, this is an issue that deserves caution. Internet callouts can certainly get to the point of bullying. But before you start taking names and calling out folks for being too angry, perhaps you should pick an area of oppression that you actually understand. When you yourself say that don’t really understand fatphobia, you don’t have a strong position to be the arbiter of what is justified anger in the face of ignorant fatphobic bigotry and what is unacceptable, unfeminist, bullying.
Oh but I will say this. All of these posters and commenters we’re discussing, no matter how fatphobic, cissexist, racist, etc etc etc? Still 100% feminist.
Cuz feminism doesn’t get to just toss out the bad apples. So the one commenter who questioned whether Monica was a feminist was wrong. She is. She’s just a bad apple.
An aside: Is it just me who’s wondering when that time was when “we could all get along” was? When the Left was on the rise things were comparatively good, you say? FOR WHO?!?!?!
I sure as fuck don’t remember having my disabilities respected any better when the Left was on the rise. And I sure haven’t heard any trans people pining for the days of yore when the Left was on the rise and liberals were marginally less transphobic.
Puhlease. Oh yeah, US-centrism again. Weeeeee. The left? On the rise? Where? Oh, right. The US. That means the left must be on the rise across the world, yeah? No. The Left has been going back and forth in polls around here, but since there’ve been no elections it’s been kinda pointless, really. And thing are continuously getting worse for marginalised people, who have to struggle with more and more barriers.
And now privileged people are offended that marginalised people get a wee bit miffed (read: right fuckin’ pissed) when they’re shat on again. Well, colour me unsurprised.
Here, have some pearls.
Thanks for the link, Tobi, and your points. Duly noted. You’re right that feminism has been guilty of oppressive behaviour and that it isn’t good enough to let it go simply because they align themselves with the movement. For the record, I don’t think the anger is unjustified, just the, as Daisy notes, behaviour, the attacks, the intimidation mechanisms, the ganging up, the ‘take down’. Many of the comments on Monica’s post were out of line. It’s not the anger that I think was out of line.
@genderbitch: thanks for all the helpful research tips! Next time I am writing an article about your site I will be sure to pore over it for hours. Oh wait, that’s right! This post isn’t about your site. And it is unlikely that I would ever write an article about your site. While I have read several excellent posts by you, I can’t imagine why I would write an entire article about it. Doing some kind of investigative reporting project about your blog doesn’t really interest me that much. I linked to your ‘shit list’ as an example of the bullying and intimidation mechanisms that I see happening on many feminist blogs. The way you conduct yourself online is like that a gossipy clique leader. Talking behind peoples back and black balling them when they piss you off.
On a side note: I don’t think that Melissa McEwan’s actions made her look ‘horrific’. I thought she dealt with the issue with respect and integrity.
And finally, just so everyone knows, if you start attacking fellow commenters, your comments will be deleted. FYI – telling others to ‘shut the fuck up’ counts as an attack.
Merci! Thanks for your interest and engaging arguments! How exciting for our new little blog!
Note from moderator — have taken off comments that are not relevant to post / attack other commenters. Will continue to do so at my own discretion.
@Meghan:
Accuracy is important, no matter how small a part of the post the section is. You remain wrong about the shit list. But enough about that.
Let’s talk about what Tobi pointed out and your issue with the commenters (which I am actually qualified to speak on, as I was fat at one point).
Calling out is a balancing act. Sometimes it is necessary. When deeply entrenched bigotry is involved opening dialogue is simply not viable, as it will be used to make excuses, downplay mistakes and continue to perpetuate the bigotry. Monica’s problematic post went beyond a simple one time mistake, because she continued to perpetuate the bigotry in the comments and make excuses for what was a pretty fatphobic and pretty poorly researched article (for instance BMI doesn’t measure fatness, it measures mass. Muscle mass is more heavy than fat and contributes more to BMI, also fat is not inherently tied to a lack of health and her basis for disputing that was her own lack of knowledge about fat runners).
You’ll notice that the initial comments were actually links to fatphobia 101 posts and were very civil. The more angry comments showed up later, as she continued to engage in apologism.
And here’s the key, when someone makes a mistake? That’s not an issue. A retraction, correction, apology whatever, solves it. When someone defends that mistake as not a mistake at all and fights tooth and nail to excuse those actions? That’s a serious, fatal issue. And that’s what calling out is for.
I also can’t help but notice how you’ve modified many of the quotes to only include the harsh jabs and not the actual meat of the comment.
“[...]I hate most of all the way it tempts us fatties into to going down a self-destructive path of good fattie/bad fattie, and one that is also destructive to other fat people. What I ate today is none of your business or the business. My athletic endeavors are not to please you. I know that you hate us and won’t believe us anyone, or will dismiss us as outlier good fatties to hate on people just like us who don’t feel like presenting you with a report card of our healthy habits.[...]”
Which looks like a pretty well thought out call out to Monica’s complete lack of accountability and really very bad post.
Soooo, calling out was necessary with Monica. I won’t argue that calling out is always justified. In fact, I’ve written the opposite and there is an issue with abusive attack comments and abusive attack posts out there. You’re simply taking it too far and using that to defend someone who is indefensible (Monica).
Erm, the quote in there was Annalouise’s quote from the comment partially quoted above in the post. Wow, labeling fail on my part
Right, back to debating the actual post here.
Meghan you wrote: “Hating one another and using threats as a way to bully people into catering to only your perspective and your interests is far from feminist and I am more and more shocked by feminist bloggers and commenters who treat fellow feminists in this way. Criticize, disagree, be angry, whatevs.”
I find it very problematic that you think it’s okay for people to be angry, as long as they’re angry in a way you find savoury. That goes very poorly in hand with the acceptance that a marginalised group is allowed to be angry. And it is a tone argument. “I will only accept your anger, if you do it the way I tell you.” It is not okay.
Also, I don’t think we’re working with the same definitions of bullying here. Bullying is more than just an angry reaction to a hateful post. If anything, Monica’s post could also e construed to be bullying. Especially as it tied into the continuous wave of of hatred amed at fat people. Monica’s words had the backing of society’s hatred of “fatties”. The people who responded to her, responded not just to her words, but to the social structure they represented.
If a blogger decides to write something that represents a privileged view of marginalised people, zie must be ready to accept that the response will be full of pent-up helplessness and frustration. And telling people “OMG you’re so angry” is a basic derailing tactic.
It would have been prudent for Monica (and you?) to reflect on WHY people are so angry.
Also: if it is a problem for a given blogger that someone hates them, zie should seriously consider whether speaking/writing publicly is hir thing. Newsflash: you can’t be friends with everyone, and once in a while someone will hate you. I’m fairly sure I have my share of haters as well. (Not so many online, though, as I’m a teeny, weeny minor player) And I hate my own share of people.
And yes, I do sometimes hate certain people. Really. Making mistakes is okay. We’re all human, but when those mistake-makers proceed to explain why their mistake wasn’t really a mistake and why I shouldn’t be so angry, and why I’m not having the correct and appropriate emotional response – then my hate can surge, and I’m not exactly the most fierce hater out there. I actively hate very few.
And let us not ignore that saying “I hate…” is a commonly used rhetorical tool. “I hated that movie,” someone might say. I doubt they actually do. I doubt a whole lot of people would use the kind of emotional energy it actually takes to truly hate and use it on a movie. So we can’t actually be sure that it’s even really hate that’s in play here.
Additionally, removing someone from your blogroll or your reader. That’s not a threat, that’s information. So friggin what if someone won’t be reading your blog anymore? Personally I’d rather be aware of why people do not read my shit, than just see people disappear without a word. But saying that it’s a threat and bullying that someone won’t be reading anymore? Hah. I suppose feminists across the world is regularly bullying The Daily Fail by not reading it? I suppose it’s totes bullying when lil ole me won’t link to a pile of misogynist crap? Please.
Cutting harmful people and behaviours out of your life is not an act of bullying. MOre likely it is a defense against bullying.
By your definition it was also bullying when my brother was moved to a different school at the age of 8 to avoid being bullied. He stopped associating with the class altogether and our parents made sure to let the teacher know what the problems were that made it necessary to remove him from a harmful situation. By your definition it was my brother who bullied the rest of his class by leaving their company.
Do you not see how ridiculous your definition is? You are actually arguing that marginalised people should not tell people of privilege that due to their privileged bigotry they will no longer be reading. And for what reason? To protect the feelings of the privileged. I’ll be sure to remember that next time a sexist dude tries to talk me into shit I don’t wanna do. Instead of telling him to fuck and keep his sexism away from me I’ll say: “I’m terribly sorry I can’t do what you want, but I’ll sit here and listen to you anyway.” And then I’ll compromise my mental health and safety by listening to his crap until HE decides he’s talked enough, because for me to tell him he’s an ass and get up and leave him there would just be rude and hateful.
Is this how you handle encounters with sexist men? I doubt it. And neither do I. But why do you then want fat people to handle encounters with fatphobic thin-privileged people this way?
Do you not see the parallel?
Sure, we want to encourage dialogue, as you say. But when people tell me I am less than human because I am autistic, I am not duty-bound to risk my mental health in trying to explain to them the ways in which they’re wrong. It’d be grand if I always had the spoons to do it when the need arose, but I don’t. So instead I’ll tell them that they’re hateful fucks, who need a lesson in humanity, and until they’ve learned it, I’ll keep my distance. They can let me know if/when they’re read to acknowledge my status as human being.
It. Is. Not. That. Hard.
@Jemima:
I think your point that “If a blogger decides to write something that represents a privileged view of marginalised people, zie must be ready to accept that the response will be full of pent-up helplessness and frustration.” is a good one. And I acknowledge that Monica may have written the post in question without taking into account that her position is one that is, and long has been, a dominant position in our society, and that she deserves criticism for this lack of awareness. I also don’t believe that the anger of marginalized folks should be manifested in a way that is acceptable to those with power and privilege.
I DO think, nonetheless, that there is a culture of ‘everyone pile on’ in the feminist blog world. I imagine you’ve read BFP’s post already (http://flipfloppingjoy.com/2010/08/09/3365/), and she talks about the ‘call out’ in a much more articulate way than I will attempt here, in the comments section, but I think what I’m getting at is something similar. There is a difference between attacking an individual, personally, and attacking a post, or an idea.
You’re right that if you’re going to put yourself out there, or if you are given the privilege of having your voice heard, you should expect criticism. Definitely. And many of the comments on Monica’s post, including the very first comment: “Your entire post is very size-ist, privileged and reeks of concern trolling. You seem like someone who has little to no knowledge of Fat Acceptance, Size Acceptance or Heath At Every Size, not exactly the person I would have picked to write about BMI on a feminist site.” are completely justified. As are many others that point out that her experience is one of privilege. I maintain that the many posts which told her to fuck off, ‘I hate you’ and, even, the posts demanding an apology, not from the writer herself, but from other bloggers on the site, lest the site be boycotted, are an effort to intimidate and are totally out of line. Why someone would stop reading an entire site and all the bloggers who write for the site because one guest blogger wrote a post they found offensive is beyond me. I don’t get it. But oh well. It’s not that they’ve elected not to read the blog anymore, because, as you say, ‘so friggin what’ but the way in which it was explained, in the comments – ‘unless you pander to my interests I boycott all of you who had little to do with what this one person posted’ that bothers me.
How I handle encounters with sexist men, you are right, is far different than how I handle encounters with intelligent folks who are aligned with feminist and anti-oppressive work. Even if I totally disagree with them and their position or their way of communicating said position, I still think, somewhere along the lines, we are working towards the same thing, and therefore I think we should treat one another with some level of decency and respect.
This thread in itself has gone from, I think, semi-harsh attacks, to respectful dialogue, and I appreciate your time and your willingness to engage. Honestly. I’m learning all sorts of things. NOT that it’s your responsibility to teach me. But I appreciate it nonetheless.
Ohhhh the pile-on concept isn’t just a feature of the feminist blog world. Believe me. It shows up just about everywhere. This is the danger of discussing stuff on the internet, as I came to realise several years ago when running a message board for fantasy book lovers. In meatspace the call-out works fine in a small-ish convo ie. with few participants(and even better between friends). But on the internet a convo can within minutes come to involve hundreds of participants, and for the blogger (or commenter) being called out for privileged/jerky behaviour that can understandably be intimidating as all hell. I’ve been on receiving end of enough of that to know. (Geez, I could tell you stories…)
I have of course read bfp’s post. Very good one, too. Also the posts she links in one of her comments on the post you linked are definitely worth your time.
We absolutely agree that there’s a big diff between criticizing the post and the poster. I feel compelled to refer to Jay Smooth on How To Tell People They Sound Racist ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0Ti-gkJiXc ). I think that’s the title. Because what he says in that vid applies to all oppressions/privileges. There’s a convo you want to have, and one you definitely don’t want to have.
Having the right conversation (ie. the What You Did convo) is, however, not always easy to do. Since I’ve now brought Jay Smooth into it, we have yet another oppression axis on which I am privileged. I’m as white as they come. So when someone says or does something racist, it is really easy for me not to take it personally. That is my privilege. Therefore it is also (theoretically) easy for me to calmly survey the situation and choose the approach that is best. No one was -ist against me personally, so no feelings were hurt. I have the privilege of calling-out from a place of privileged calm.
If on the other hand the person doing the calling-out is on the underprivileged end of the oppression axis it already got personal. If people are ableist against people with cognitive disabilities it is personal for me. I cannot just sit there calmly and think “Hmmmm what would be the best approach?” I have to be having a really friggin good day for that to be remotely possible. No, if people say something -ist that applies to my axis of oppression, it is me personally that they are dehumanising and shitting on. In other words: it just got personal.
The reason I cannot make myself condemn the people who got really angry at Monica is the above. I have thin privilege, so while I could read the post and go: “Oh damn, that was really poorly worded, and shows her privilege in a very unfortunate way” this reaction shows off MY privilege. To me it is not personal. I’m standing on the outside looking in. So from me one might rightfully expect he right choice when it comes the convo we want to have and the one we don’t.
But when it comes to those who were the ones being targetted by the privileged post we are already having the wrong conversation. Monica chose to make it the wrong conversation, when she engaged in fat-shaming. Because the moment she pulled out the tropes about fat runners and donuts, it became personal for fat people. Monica chose to make it a What You Are conversation rather than a What You Did conversation. And since she did not do this in a vacuum, it is even more ridiculous to expect of the marginalised people to have the presence of mind and distance of emotion to choose The Convo We Want To Have, when Monica had already chosen the one she wanted to have.
“Why someone would stop reading an entire site and all the bloggers who write for the site because one guest blogger wrote a post they found offensive is beyond me.”
This shows your privilege. I have ditched many blogs from my reader and blogroll because they are not safe spaces. I need to protect myself from triggery things. And if a blog continuously allows triggery stuff (for me it’s mainly suicide and psychophobia) I’m not gonna be reading there. My time is better spent on engaging with people who want to learn or conversely can teach me something, rather than on feeling like shit because someone said something really crappy and didn’t own it.
That you write it like this also shows a lack of feel for the Feministe conversations. In the last two months there have been several HUGE blow-ups. Sometimes with the commenters, sometimes with the posters. Two posts of Jill’s have been problematic and triggered a shitstorm in discussion threads, neither of which I thought she handled very well. And before that we had the Commentariat being really, really bad when mai’a guest blogged over there. I do agree with you that holding the entire Feministe crew accountable for one guest blogger is not the way to go, but that is the only point in comments I find unacceptable. But seen in the larger view, it’s not just this one time that something went bad on Feministe. It has happened continuously over the past year. It went off my blogroll over a year ago. I tentatively put it on again last autumn, and took it back off this spring. Feministe is not a safe space for many marginalised groups, and that’s just a fact.
Not understanding why someone would want to avoid stuff that is really personally offensive to them shows privilege. Just like you and I both would probably do what we could to avoid the company of sexist assholes and as much as possible choose decent people for our acquaintances, there are people out there who would prefer to avoid company that would think them less than human for being of colour, disabled or trans or would shame them for being fat, kinky, poor or vegan/omni. I’m sure you can think of more yourself.
As long as a site attempts to work against all oppressions – or at least claims to be against them. It will always elicit an emotional response, when people, who thought they’d be on safe grounds, are suddenly faced with yet another person marginalising them and denying their reality.
You’re wrong about one thing, though: Your assumption that we’re all working towards the same thing.
If only that were so. If only.
As much as we’d like to think that we all just wanna live in peace deep down, I’m afraid I have to break it to you that reality is not quite like that. Even among those who identify as feminists. I will not police who is a feminist or not. But feminists include Mary Daly who thought that genocide of trans people was the way to go. She was a feminist, and she and I are definitely not working towards the same thing. Margaret Sanger was racist as all hell and she was feminist. So being feminist definitely does not mean we’re working towards the same goal. At all.
Some feminists think sex workers are all mentally ill and therefore cannot be trusted t know their own reality, which is a really bigoted attitude both towards the sex workers and the mentally ill, so among feminists like those neither sex workers (and often kinksters too) nor the mentally ill can feel safe. But they’re still feminists. And some feminists believe all het sex is rape and only lesbian sex is worth anything. And they, too, are feminists.
In the disability blogosphere – I mostly frequent autism sites in that regard – we have the same problem. Sure we’re all working towards equality for people with disabilities. But quite a few of the men with disabilities are still sexist as fuck. Where does that put me as a woman with disabilities? There’s a lot of racism in the LGBT movement, so where does that place queer people of colour?
We SHOULD treat each other with decency and respect. Oh, how I agree with that. But even among people who mean well and are awesome in combating one kind of oppression we may still meet a complete unwillingness to face up to another kind of privilege. And how oppressed people on that other axis keep themselves safe (e.g. by not reading a specific blog) is not for us to police.
Yes, the ideal would be if we all had the ability to speak nicely to each other al the time. That is, unfortunately, utopic.
Analogy time: let’s say I cause a traffic accident. It is completely my responsibility that it happened – not because I meant for it to happen, but because I made the mistake of being inattentive for a moment. Maybe I was fiddling with the radio. Either way, I caused an accident. Another car is totalled and people have been injured. No one is dead, thankfully.
It was totally my fault, the whole thing, so am I really justified in being offended, when the driver in the other car, whose broken arm is really causing her a lot of pain yells at me and tells me I’m a shit driver and I shouldn’t ever be allowed to drive a car ever again? Nope. I really have no basis to be offended, because I have just caused her pain, and that’s probably distracting her more than a little. And hey, she’s just been in a car crash – being upset is expected, yeah?
I think most of us would understand her anger, frustration etc, and I also think most of us would understand why she would vent it at me who caused the crash. It’s not nice to be on the receiving end, obviously, and I’m not sure how well I’d handle it. I’d probably be shocked myself and gracelessly be yelling right back at her, which would of course also be wrong of me. (I wouldn’t know – I’ve never been in a car crash) But from the outside looking in, we’d completely understand that this woman, who is in pain, is behaving completely naturally in taking out her pain and shock on the one who caused it – however unintentionally. But it is still my responsibility because I SHOULD have lived up to my responsibility and kept my eyes and attention on the road.
It’s the same thing that happened in the Feministe thread. Monica was me. She didn’t keep her eyes on the road. Fat & Health is absolutely a topic worthy of discussion. But you seriously have to keep your eyes on the road when you’re coming from a place of privilege. She didn’t do this well enough. And while no one’s arm was broken a lot of feelings were hurt. And emotional pain is just as distracting as physical pain. Especially when that emotional pain is not a one-time “damn, it hurt that she broke up with me”-pain but rather a “gah! She (and most of society) thinks I’m unworthy of the name human”-pain. This can distract even the best debators and cause them to lash out. And I simply cannot find it in my heart to police them for it. This is pain that they’re feeling. And they’re feeling it because someone was fiddling with radio and not keeping their eyes on the road. Can we *really* blame them? I think not.
Lastly I’m gonna call you on a little bit of privilege as well ;-) and because I’m having a good day I also have the spoons to do it nicely and with explanations. Yay!
“How I handle encounters with sexist men, you are right, is far different than how I handle encounters with intelligent folks who are aligned with feminist and anti-oppressive work.”
This was really poorly worded. You make it sound like sexist is opposite of intelligent. This equates unintelligent with bigoted and is really, really bad. It is oppressive towards people with mental disabilities. Both of my cousins are – for lack of better word – unintelligent. They have IQs between 60 and 70, neither of them will ever be able to make it on their own the way our society is put together. Both of them are really, really awesome people. Both are black, one is a lesbian, the other is gay, both have disabilities, and both of them are some of the most open and accepting people I know. No prejudice, no judgement. Similarly many of the sexist men I know (and other -ist) are really intelligent and have all sorts of number-crunched economic arguments for why it’s just not a good idea to give poor people access to health care nor to give women the right to abortion, nor to legislate against workplace discrimination against all sorts of minorities. They’re really intelligent, but they’re sexist (and other -ist) fucks nonetheless.
So please don’t say it as if sexist men and intelligent folks are two mutually exclusive groups. ‘Cause they definitely aren’t. There. Here Endeth The Lesson.
Wow… I’m writing monster comments. This is almost a post on its own. Phew. :-P
@Meghan:
But that’s the problem. Those people who are aligned with feminist and anti-oppressive work? Are still being just like the sexist men. You don’t know if that sexist man is working against racism or against capitalism. Doing anti oppression work in one area doesn’t change someone’s bigotry in a different one.
The impression I’m getting is that the reason why you’re more gentle with cis abled white thin feminists over sexist men is because they’re your people. So what should those of us who aren’t their people do with them? I feel like within your own logic there is an argument for trans folk, disabled folk, poc and fat folk to treat those feminists just like sexist men.
Which is what happened on Monica’s post.
Which is also why I don’t feel BFP’s post (and mine and Lisa’s on calling out) applies to this situation (that we would be overreaching to apply those posts). In this situation Monica was bullying, attacking and defending her bigotry. A call out became necessary.
I wanted to add something I worded better when discussing it on a private blog elsewhere:
There is a huge difference when we’re talking white privileged commenters piling on a woman of colour mostly for her opinions but the excuse was her single use of a problematic word, and then this situation where we have a privileged blogger talking about a subject she has privilege in and then being piled on by people who are underprivileged on that specific axis. It is not the same thing.
Bfp’s post is good, yes, as are her other posts, but they are related to the shitstorm that hit mai’a when she blogged on Feministe. I don’t fully agree with mai’a on everything she wrote, but shouting her down is deeply problematic, when the shouting is done by white Americans whose lives are so much more privileged than a woman of colour living in Egypt.(iirc). And it is by no means the same effect when, say, a white women decides to speak on race issues, gets it wrong and is corrected by people of colour.
The former happened because the commenters forgot to check their privilege, the latter happened because the blogger forgot to check her privilege. Not the same thing. Let’s not conflate the two.